RBA goes after eBay, PayPal

Whether or not you like the Paypal system and whether or not you are happy with it, is not issue at all. It's a matter of choice.

A finance/banking system should not be forced on users, in this case Sellers, by an Auction site that owns that particular Fin/Bank system, that is anti-competitive and "channelling" the monetary transaction in a restrictive way that trade is not supposed to be.

It should be remembered that people who sell on eBay "Sellers" are also "Buyers" of eBay services and this in a way is forcing these consumers into a particular merchant payment system instead of giving them a choice.

Paypal should not be forced on sellers or buyers if they do not want to use it. Fortunatley we have another option in Paymate (Australian company) which deposits the money (less fees) straight into your account. Ebay and PP's clever ruse in asking th ACCC for an exemption on two counts and then withdrawing the second was a well thought out plan. i.e Sellers no longer forced to accepet paypal as the only means of paying but forced to offer it or unable to,list. By withdrawing from the second they left the first in limbo. why hasnt the ACCC ruled on this yet?

I have used Paypal for many years with no problems at all. As a buyer it has enabled me to recoup my money when goods have not been received and in thousands of sales I have never had anyone feel they needed to go to Paypal if they were due a refund. It is a fact that if you pay for an ebay item with bank deposit you have no chance of getting redress unless the seller chooses to refund you.

Anyone who did their homework would realize pretty quick - you would have to have rocks in your head to risk trusting Paypal with your account details. Plently of information and bad users experiences are out there for all to read and see for themselves - simply search for it.

Alan Prestons - I don't know where you got the idea the the Reserve Bank is privately owned from. RBA is a regulatory authoriity of the federal government much like the ACCC except its domain is the financial sector. So does that answer you question on what it has to do with the RBA? ALL of the board members are appointed by the government except for the Governor who is the CEO. As for the real power being the central banks - that is exactly what the RBA is.

With regard comment 1, the RBA is a statutory authority, established by an Act of Parliament, the Reserve Bank Act 1959.

AlanJPreston of Brisbane, I think you need to do some research. The Reserve Bank is *not* privately owned, it is a Statutory Authority with its board members being appointed by the Govt of the day (The Treasurer). It's operations are mandated and handled under the Reserve Bank Act 1959. The bank has powers under the Payment Systems (Regulation) Act 1998, hence the discussions with eBay.. eBay operates in Australia as an Australian company, so they certainly do have control over what happens.

The worrying part about this is that it seems the RBA don;t like the No Surchage for PayPal use policy. Remember when they told us it was anti-competitive for CC companies to disallow sucharges on payments. Now it's common-place to get slogged by retailers and typically for more than they are actually charged by the card company. So much for it being in the interest of consumers. What a crock. The RBA should stay out of a market it clearly doesn't understand or perhaps focus on mortgage rates and Bank margins.

AlanJPreston, the Reserve Bank is the bank to the Commonwealth Government. It sets monetary policy and controls payment systems. It has the absolute authority to direct PayPal to remove the "no surchare" rules. See http://www.rba.gov.au/PaymentsSystem/payments_system_board.html

What many people do not realise is that if you use eBay/paypal to buy AND sell, then eBay is able to grab a huge % of the original transaction in a few moves, assuming 15% overall commission on each transaction, all examples are to the nearest $1: Here is how it goes 1) $100 transaction becomes $85, then 2) $72, 3) $61, 4) $52, 5) $44, 6) $37, 7) $32, 8) $27, 9) $23..............beginning to get the picture?

To AlanJPreston of Brisbane, you obviously know nothing about the Reserve Bank. It is owned by the Australian Government. http://www.rba.gov.au

A well deserved outcome for the Rebellion. And not before time. Paypal's business practices are unconscionable, their user agreement transfers all liability for serious account take-over, fraud and theft back onto account holders and their competitors - the banks.

PayPal DOES NOT guarantee any safety in data transfer, and they DO NOT guarantee any refunds, even if the account holder is verified. PayPal's so-called buyer protection is illusory. The ACCC found that PayPal is NOT the safest payment method. Then there's the underhanded transfer of consumer chargebacks onto our banks via third party liability transfer. Paypal know that our banks are EFT Code signatories and as such they insurer account holders against liabilities, and so it's just too easy for Paypal to simply transfer the cost of its incompetence and audacity back onto the banks.

This type of practice absolutely has the potential to destabilise the Australian Payment Systems, and it sets a great argument for Paypal to sign the EFT Code AND INSURE IT'S OWN ACCOUNT HOLDERS. Both Paypal and Ebay's User agreements MUST be brought into line with Australian consumer protection laws. Neither Ebay or Paypal are easily identifiable or cooperative when it comes to lodging disuptes, neither have even the most basic dispute resolution process and neither advise their customers that they have a right to seek redress through Fair Trading or the ACCC.

They openly prejudice the consumers right to legal redress, even announcing in Ebay's User Agreement that any legal costs may be born by the complainant? Legally speaking that's just a whole load of rot. There is legal precedent that Ebay is liable. See Evagora v Ebay which overturns Ebay's releases and disclaimersalong with it's venue only argument.

Whats it got to do with the RBA? The Reserve Bank of Australia is a privately owned entity. It is not owned by the Australian Govt. In fact the Govt only have 2 seats on the Board and always cowtows to the real power on the planet.. the central banks. They don't have any regulatory role in the Australian business sector other than setting the rate at which the commercial banks borrow from them. Its just a beat up saying that the RBA is going to discipline eBay as they literally have no say over eBay.com which is a USA based public company, shares trading at $31.94 this morning.

As buyers have a choice on eBay to purchase via different payment methods, sellers should be given the same freedom. I only us PayPal for my overseas purchases and will make payment via Direct Deposit within Australia. It is grossly unfare to make a seller pay to remove there money from PayPal, this should be split to both parties. I'm sure that if buyers were charged by eBay to make payment via PayPal it wouldn't be used at all.

For the small time user that may want to sell 1 or 2 items eBay is now not a possibility unless they go to the trouble of creating an account.

Its a free world eBay, give Buyers and Sellers a choice. I'm sure that both can make the best decisions for themselves, for me this just smacks of becoming a Monopoly by charging Sellers Fee's twice.... Once to sell and another to actually gain access to their funds.

I do not support paypal, and I am happy that the ACCC has so far stopped Ebay eliminating bank deposits. Why has Ebay forgot that cash is king? Oh yeah, I forgot, they don't make any transaction costs with bank deposits. Keep poking sticks at them RBA and ACCC. I was unfortunately nearly a victim of one guy operating in Perth while he tried sending things over from USA. Logistical nightmare potentially for me and tax avoidance for him. He eventually failed because he couldn't deliver the items. I was lucky to get mine.

who cares, noone is holding a gun to your head and saying you must buy or sell via ebay. its a free market, let ebay do whatever it damn well likes, it just creates opportunity for other online marketplaces to fill the void. this is GOOD for australian business and consumers, not bad. I mean do I have a say when say my local restaurant accepts cash only and no visa? this is all about the government trying to take a cut, not about protecting the end consumer.

I was totally conned of $US5,000 by accepting paypal. NEVER accept paypal for anything more than a few $100 or so is my advice. Their "protection" is simply non-existent.

Paypal did not want to know, and I lost the goods AND the $US5,000 that they refunded to seller as he claimed the goods did not arrive DESPITE being mailed Insured Air Australia Post, (Cost to me $65) and all receipts for which which were sent to paypal.

I got his money via PayPal, let it sit there for 24 hours, THEN mailed his goods fully insured airpost. When I supplied him the insurance number he lodged a "non receipt" claim that same day with PayPal, and they escrowed the money.

I was mildly annoyed but assumed it was all be rectified after I supplied a scan of the insurance docket as proof. I spent hours on their annoying dispute console website. In the end PayPal returned the $US5,000 to the buyer as "I could not offer an on-line tracking number to them".

The fact Australia Post overseas insured has never had on-line tracking was irrelevant. So I lost the stamp and did not get paid. I will never use paypal again for more than a few $100 after that nonsense. BEWARE OF PAYPAL.

More details here: http://www.glenstephens.com/snmay08.html

Glen

I wish the ATO would go after ebay for issuing all bills/charges from their overseas entity, sidestepping the GST all the rest of us have to pay. Hit them where it hurts!

Things I know about Paypal.1- Dont every leave money in your account. If you get paid for something, withdraw the money immediately, 2-If you have a problem with a charge for good not delivered, Start a Paypal investigation. Tell them they have 2 weeks to sort it out or you will chargeback the item through your bank. Maybe sure you ONLY pay for items via credit card and NOT bank withdrawal. The words CHARGEBACK with any company sends shivers down there spine and they will fix the problem ASAP.

If buyers want to use PayPal and sellers don't, Buyers should be the ones paying the transfer fee not sellers. Buyers apparently get a "benefit" out of using Paypal but don't pay a cent for the privilege. Alternatively, the rules should be changed to give sellers to pass on the paypal fee in the final invoice at the end of the auction.

The quotes in the last 2 paragraphs if this is in fact true as to what is on the website isn't this deceptive? as other payment methods may be just as safe. The last paragraph about buyer protection if the buyer can't be protected fully then this also would be deceptive conduct? I wonder if the ACCC are looking into those Claims.

Jon of Perth - you must be one of the lucky ones that hasn't had issues with Paypal. I'm happy for you to support a restriction-of-trade system, I suspect you are in the minority.

The banks don't listen to the RBA so what makes the RBA so special that Paypal will listen?

Jon of Perth: You've been duped by Paypal and eBay's advertising. Paypal are no safer than a direct bank account transfer, and many argue less safe. Just because you personally have not lost a cent on eBay so far doesn't mean much. Do a web-search for 'paypal scams' on Google. The best way to fix eBay/Paypal's practices would be to embrace competition; unfortunately, eBay own the on-line auction market, and they know it.

Of course you'd like PayPal "Jon Of Perth". I do too when I'm BUYING! The charges involved as a seller are hideous and I now refuse to sell anything on eBay with PayPal. eBay charge you for selling, PayPal takes charges out to transfer money from your PayPal account to your normal bank account, the PayPal exchange rate for overseas transactions always seems to be worse than a general international credit card transaction, then eBay send you an end of month invoice for selling your product (just when you thought the listing charges were all they wanted!). PayPal is just another charge that breaks the odd seller's back.

Jon of Perth - You live in dreamland - yes? Paypal are a wholly owned subsidiary of eBay. Your argument is that you avoid fraud by using Paypal. Do you understand the "strict" definition of the term and word "fraud" where the moral principle is concerned? Or are you saying you can't be bothered trusting an individual but are happy to pay an agency belonging to another agency a commission for the commssion to both sell and pay for goods?

Additionally: You obviously haven't been doing your research where it comes to both those agencies' performance when it comes to addressing real high stakes fraud. Go back to square one and do your sums buddy - or rather I have a bridge for sale - I offer paypal - wanna buy? :)

Its only fair to offer people the choice to choose.

Ive been ripped off once by a seller that didnt offer paypal,from now on i wont buy on ebay unless they offer paypal. Same as Jon if the seller has an item i want but wont offer it i just wait untill another seller with that item is listed WITH paypal, no paypal no ebay pretty much

When will sellers realise that buyers want Paypal! It is the only way I will buy on eBay. eBay sellers are generally so amateur and tight fisted, they don't have the wit to pass the cost onto the buyer in the price. Pay pal means no work for the buyer...Do you get it? We the buyers want Paypal!

PayPal is also a very effective tool for international transactions.

PAYPAL IS SOOOO NOT SAFE. MY ACCOUNT WAS COMPROMISED 2 TIMES ( YES NOT ONCE, BUT 2 TIMES) AND PAYPAL REFUSED TO REFUND MY MONEY CITING THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT MY CLAIM. SO NOT ONLY DID I SHUT MY ACCOUNT DOWN, I REPORTED IT TO MY BANK WHO THEN DID A CHARGEBACK ON PAYPAL AND GOT MY MONEY BACK THAT PAYPAL REFUSED TO REFUND ME! UP YOURS PAYPAL.

Use to sell eAPS on ebay, now would not use or recommnd to anyone.

I've bought and sold on eBay for a couple of years now and hate the whole PayPay thing. After eBay takes their cut (insert fee & final value %), PayPal will then take their cut too! Then they charge you $1 (for balance up to $150)to transfer YOUR money into your bank account - and the transferring of your money from PayPal to your bank can take 5-7 days! Every step of the way, they dip into your profits, and it stinks!!!

As an eBay seller I find the idea of sending someone my personal bank details inconceivable, instead I insist on my buyers using PayPal. Likewise when I make a purchase I will only use PayPal and the transaction is a lot smoother. I don't want to provide anyone my credit card or bank account details. Those who do not understand the anonymous interaction required on the internet, are the ones that are letting themselves be scammed and will ultimately lose money. If you send money via a bank and the goods don%u2019t arrive is your bank really going to give a refund... think again, but PayPal will try at least.

Paypal will at long last have to conduct it self just as our honest financial institutions%u2019 do, why the hell has Paypal been able to conduct it self in such a reckless manor for so long, they don%u2019t abide by EFT code, they wont refund money if the shonky seller has no money in his account, they can freeze your Paypal account without any explanation what so ever, so many ripped off users in the past that could have been avoided, looks like justice could be done at last...

After 305 plus transactions on Ebay with about 30% inside Australia I can prove without any problem that the Australian transactions that would not take Paypal (20%) (as opposed to the other 70% from the US that did), that the Aussie deals were the most difficult if not fraudulant.

Non arrival, excuses, sheer BS descriptions from AU non PayPal sellers and we arnt talking peanuts here (one purchase including transport was over AUD 2000.00) means I wont buy from ANY AU seller who dosent take PP.

It may not be the best system, but it sure as hell sorts the thieves from the honest.

Yes, as a buyer, paying by PayPal is very convenient. But, as an ocassional seller I resent very much eBay's "back door" enforcing of PayPal onto sellers; surely it should be the seller's choice whether or not to risk the loss of a sale by not offering the buyer that PayPal "convenience".

Paypal does not benefit either buyers or sellers. For buyers, they end up paying higher postage fee as seller will include ebay and paypal fee component into the postage fee. For sellers, they always have to explain the buyes regardng the high postage fee and it will cost $1 to withdraw the money into your nominated bank account if the fund you withdraw is less than 149. It's not a problem to repeat sellers, but what happen to one off seller?

Finally! Paypal might claim that it is keeping buyer's protected, but I've had nothing but bad luck when it comes to dealing with Paypal. The fees are ridiculous, I've had a small group of shonky buyers claiming that I sell damaged goods and Paypal takes the money from my account and refunds those buyers without my permission, the Paypal site is ALWAYS down so I can't log into it and/or get my money. Paypal is more trouble than its worth. And people are starting to feel the sting of it.

At last this company may have to be held accountable for their draconian actions and continuing propaganda twisting of facts and to try and force Paypal down every ebay users throats. The tireless efforts of a few astute and articulate ebayers will hopefully make the site a safer envoiroment without mandatory paypal and a choice of many safe and safer systems than paypal. The amount of fraud instigated through this dodgy payment system just keeps on growing as is well documented on forums and the web, currently being played out with the EBS fiasco.

Jon of Perth - you have that right and no seller would deny you that right, whether they be for or against Paypal.

Indeed, that is not the point. Sellers should be free to set their own trading structure and payment arrangements. Buyers are then able to choose what products, service, payment options, etc. suit them. As a result, the MARKET will find its own natural level - where some sellers will give on a few issues in order to attract business and some buyers may broaden their outlook in order to acquire a product. THAT is the point.

Even more to the point is that, from reports I have seen, there is no accountability on the part of Paypal when it comes to claims. This represents an unacceptable risk to some sellers, yet they have no say other than to walk away.

ALL acceptable payment methods should get equal footing at every level of the ebay process. In addition, sellers should be able to mark and mention their preferred methods, currently the only method you can mark as preferred when creating a listing is Paypal.

I am happy to use a Personal Cheque, or Money Order, to make payments to sellers by Post. No-one is going to force me to use Pay Pal. It is MY money,; MY decision, NOT eBays.

I am both a buyer and seller on Ebay. When buying I will only buy using Paypal as I have much higher protection from fraud than paying via Bank deposit or other means. I stopped paying Via Bank deposit back in 2006 when I was riped off $400 by an Ebay seller. I even use paypal for online purchases away from Ebay as well. I have not lost any money since using Paypal. As a seller I can say that about 90% of my customers choose to pay VIA paypal. The Rest pay Via Bank Deposit.

Jon, thats all well and good...at the moment though EVERY seller has to accept Paypal...EBAY FORCE every seller to list it as an option in Australia. And when YOU pay by Paypal the Seller Pays not only Ebay fees but Paypal fees. It also opens the seller to fraud from the buyer if buyer decides they want to rip seller off, they put in a chargeback and its upto seller to prove that item was delivered.Paypal can also hold a sellers money for an undetermied time if they so wish, and buyer protection is at the discretion of Paypal...read the small print in Paypals T&C's

On a few occasions I have experienced problems with payments I've made via Paypal. I've tried to discuss them, by telephoning Paypal's Australian telephone number. On every occasion I have found that the Paypal employ could not conduct a basic conversation and appeared to have limited English expression skills. I "gave up" on each occasion.

As a buyer I prefer to pay by paypal (bank account) and as a seller I happily accept paypal except from people like Jon of Perth. Does he realize that payments made by debit/credit card through paypal attract an extra fee for sellers?

Ebay consistantly claimed that we are being forced to use Paypal for transaction security. The recent collapse of EBA has shown everyone that the Paypal protection plan is not worth the pixels on your computer screen, it only applies if they can recover the funds from the seller.

Jon Paypal does not protect from fraud. It only gives the illusion that it does so. You will discover that very soon.

Illusory protection is not that far off the mark. I recently purchased an item off a US seller on eBay & paid via PayPal because of the perceived buyer protection. On receipt of the item it turns out to be faulty & not new as advertised. The seller does not reply to emails so I start a PayPal claim. PayPal insist I must return the item to the seller via Registered international mail with online tracking at my expense. I explain that the cost of returning the item via that method is more than the original cost of the item & the original cost of postage to me & agree to send via airmail. After supplying scans of a technicians receipt, postal scans I wait 3 weeks. Meanwhile the sellers account is now gone from eBay (delisted). PayPal then insists I send a fax to a US number with full details & proof of delivery. Three calls (international rates) and their fax machine keeps rejecting. After half a dozen emails to PayPal & they now say I have insufficient evidence for my refund. So let me get this right; I pay for the item I pay for delivery I pay for a technician to examine the item, declare it dead & for a replacement. I pay for return of the item to the seller I pay for international phone calls I spend 4 hours jumping through PayPal hoops PayPal say no refund. Buyer protection LOL